{"ygPerms":{"resourceCapabilityList":[{"resourceType":"GROUP","capabilities":[{"name":"UPDATE"},{"name":"READ"},{"name":"WELCOME_MSG"},{"name":"PENDING_COUNT"},{"name":"ACTIVITY_LOGS"}]},{"resourceType":"PHOTO","capabilities":[{"name":"READ"},{"name":"READ"},{"name":"UPLOAD"},{"name":"UPDATE"},{"name":"DELETE"},{"name":"COPY"},{"name":"MOVE"},{"name":"APPROVE"},{"name":"UPLOADTEMP"},{"name":"GROUPCOVER"}]},{"resourceType":"FILE","capabilities":[{"name":"READ"},{"name":"CREATE"},{"name":"UPDATE"},{"name":"DELETE"},{"name":"AUTO_SEND"}]},{"resourceType":"MEMBER","capabilities":[{"name":"READ"},{"name":"READ"},{"name":"EDIT_MODERATOR"},{"name":"DELETE"},{"name":"CREATE"},{"name":"UPDATE"},{"name":"BAN"}]},{"resourceType":"LINK","capabilities":[{"name":"READ"},{"name":"CREATE"},{"name":"UPDATE"},{"name":"DELETE"},{"name":"MOVE_LINK"}]},{"resourceType":"CALENDAR","capabilities":[{"name":"READ"}]},{"resourceType":"DATABASE","capabilities":[{"name":"CREATE"},{"name":"READ"},{"name":"READ_DATA"}]},{"resourceType":"POLL","capabilities":[{"name":"READ"},{"name":"VOTE"},{"name":"UPDATE"},{"name":"CREATE"},{"name":"DELETE"},{"name":"CLOSE"}]},{"resourceType":"MESSAGE","capabilities":[{"name":"CREATE"},{"name":"READ"},{"name":"DELETE"}]},{"resourceType":"PENDING_MESSAGE","capabilities":[{"name":"READ"},{"name":"UPDATE"},{"name":"DELETE"}]},{"resourceType":"ATTACHMENTS","capabilities":[{"name":"READ"},{"name":"DELETE"}]},{"resourceType":"PHOTOMATIC_ALBUMS","capabilities":[{"name":"READ"},{"name":"UPLOAD"}]},{"resourceType":"MEMBERSHIP_TYPE","capabilities":[{"name":"READ"},{"name":"CREATE"},{"name":"DELETE"},{"name":"UPDATE"}]},{"resourceType":"POST","capabilities":[{"name":"UPDATE"},{"name":"CREATE"},{"name":"READ"},{"name":"DELETE"}]},{"resourceType":"PIN","capabilities":[{"name":"UPDATE"},{"name":"CREATE"},{"name":"READ"},{"name":"DELETE"}]}],"modStatus":"MODERATOR","subStatus":"NORMAL","groupUrl":"groups.yahoo.com","intlCode":"us"},"comscore":"pageview_candidate","ygData":{"userId":229380146,"authorName":"Jean-Christophe Helary","from":"Jean-Christophe Helary &lt;fusion@mx6.tiki.ne.jp&gt;","profile":"jc_helary","replyTo":"LIST","senderId":"TuZTcfsBfgH9HDYGYU2sU88bZafCi7ShMLqd6dX2zWekrm2RvP0Lwz4y5KxXi3nN18Hi-9YrKTCK0Fi60vAaKpxGWHgIaESRANd_PIFgd5aI0CzKIA","spamInfo":{"isSpam":false,"reason":"0"},"subject":"Re: OmegaT documentation new system","postDate":"1166494217","msgId":7326,"canDelete":true,"contentTrasformed":false,"systemMessage":false,"headers":{"messageIdInHeader":"PDg2MEJDMDhELTE3RjYtNEM0Mi04OTBGLUUxN0M5NzY3ODBBMEBteDYudGlraS5uZS5qcD4=","inReplyToHeader":"PDQ1ODZFNjI4LjgwMTA1MDdAeWFob28uaXQ+","referencesHeader":"PEY2MjA2RjI4LUYwRTMtNDgzRS04QjZDLTczQUJDNjFDQTQ5RkBteDYudGlraS5uZS5qcD4gPDQ1ODZFNjI4LjgwMTA1MDdAeWFob28uaXQ+"},"prevInTopic":7324,"nextInTopic":7414,"prevInTime":7325,"nextInTime":7327,"topicId":7246,"numMessagesInTopic":8,"msgSnippet":"Sabine, I heard that you had talked to henry about the documentation and since what I have to say about that in response to you is pretty much what I replied","rawEmail":"Return-Path: &lt;fusion@mx6.tiki.ne.jp&gt;\r\nX-Sender: fusion@mx6.tiki.ne.jp\r\nX-Apparently-To: OmegaT@yahoogroups.com\r\nReceived: (qmail 71585 invoked from network); 19 Dec 2006 02:18:05 -0000\r\nReceived: from unknown (66.218.66.167)\n  by m24.grp.scd.yahoo.com with QMQP; 19 Dec 2006 02:18:05 -0000\r\nReceived: from unknown (HELO smtp8.tiki.ne.jp) (218.40.30.79)\n  by mta6.grp.scd.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Dec 2006 02:18:04 -0000\r\nReceived: from [192.168.11.3] (pl012.nas932.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp [210.136.180.12])\n\t(authenticated bits=0)\n\tby smtp8.tiki.ne.jp (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id kBJ2AJNp062204\n\t(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO);\n\tTue, 19 Dec 2006 11:10:20 +0900 (JST)\n\t(envelope-from fusion@mx6.tiki.ne.jp)\r\nIn-Reply-To: &lt;4586E628.8010507@yahoo.it&gt;\r\nReferences: &lt;F6206F28-F0E3-483E-8B6C-73ABC61CA49F@mx6.tiki.ne.jp&gt; &lt;4586E628.8010507@yahoo.it&gt;\r\nMime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3)\r\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed\r\nMessage-Id: &lt;860BC08D-17F6-4C42-890F-E17C976780A0@mx6.tiki.ne.jp&gt;\r\nCc: OmegaT@yahoogroups.com\r\nContent-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable\r\nDate: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 11:10:17 +0900\r\nTo: &quot;Mailing list for OmegaT localizers.&quot; &lt;omegat-l10n@lists.sourceforge.net&gt;\r\nX-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3)\r\nX-Originating-IP: 218.40.30.79\r\nX-eGroups-Msg-Info: 1:0:0:0\r\nFrom: Jean-Christophe Helary &lt;fusion@mx6.tiki.ne.jp&gt;\r\nSubject: Re: OmegaT documentation new system\r\nX-Yahoo-Group-Post: member; u=229380146; y=kSpAx5iQ5r06Iy87zvPJkKdFsqD55oT5Eku0v9hqGOf7uokuSw\r\nX-Yahoo-Profile: jc_helary\r\n\r\nSabine,\n\nI heard that you had talked to henry about the documentation and  =\r\n\nsince what I have to say about that in response to you is pretty much  \nwh=\r\nat I replied to him allow me to first paste my original response,  \nthen I&#39;=\r\nll address all your points specifically:\n\n(my reply to Henry&#39;s notice of yo=\r\nur discussion, I edited it to remove  \nall the unrelated parts)\n\n&gt; I think =\r\nWiki is the way to go for highly collaborative stuff. And  \n&gt; the OmegaT pa=\r\nge at wikipedia is an example. I&#39;d like to have &quot;wiki  \n&gt; support&quot; for that=\r\n page, since I also consider it part of the  \n&gt; documentation in a way.\n&gt;\n&gt;=\r\n But the manual ? It was in HTML before, then in text, then in wiki  \n&gt; and=\r\n I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of people who  \n&gt; did _r=\r\neally_ contribute. Regarding translation, it is the same. We  \n&gt; have curre=\r\nntly close to a dozen manual translation getting ready  \n&gt; for release and =\r\nI am not aware we&#39;de have more were the manual  \n&gt; written in wiki.\n&gt;\n&gt; In =\r\nfact it would be a mess to organize since in the end we&#39;d still  \n&gt; have so=\r\nmebody who handles the whole manual for one language, at  \n&gt; least for proo=\r\nfreading and style/terminology correction.\n&gt;\n&gt; I can&#39;t think it would be an=\r\ny easier by using a different  \n&gt; &quot;technology&quot;. What we need is people who =\r\nare _aware_ of what it  \n&gt; means to translate.\n&gt;\n&gt; Having additional &quot;non-o=\r\nfficial&quot; piece of documentation here and  \n&gt; there in wiki is totally fine.=\r\n\n&gt;\n&gt; Professional translators are not scared of translating a whole  \n&gt; man=\r\nual for 2 reasons: 1)- they do that all the time 2)- they feel  \n&gt; like con=\r\ntributing to OmegaT as professionals.\n&gt;\n&gt;&gt; What do you think? Is DocBook st=\r\nill the way to go, or should we\n&gt;&gt; switch back to a wiki? (A different wiki=\r\n then, cause the current one\n&gt;&gt; is hell slow.) There are tools to convert w=\r\niki pages to normal HTML\n&gt;&gt; pages, so that shouldn&#39;t be a problem. One can =\r\nalso get the contents\n&gt;&gt; of a wiki page in XML format, so another option is=\r\n to use XSL to\n&gt;&gt; transform a wiki page to HTML.\n&gt;\n&gt; I don&#39;t think it is a =\r\ntechnology problem. Honestly. When the  \n&gt; DocBook version will be ready yo=\r\nu&#39;ll see that markup in wiki or  \n&gt; markup in DocBook is really not that di=\r\nfferent. We decided to shift  \n&gt; to wiki to accelerate the process because =\r\nI was stuck, not to make  \n&gt; the process easier.\n&gt;\n&gt; I think the documentat=\r\nion tracker will act in similar ways to a  \n&gt; &quot;wiki&quot;: somebody will make a =\r\nproposal, we will discuss its wording  \n&gt; on the tracker and when it is oke=\r\nd somebody will commit it to cvs  \n&gt; and the thing will be closed.  Once th=\r\ne people are used to that  \n&gt; they&#39;ll just have no problem with that. I thi=\r\nnk opening up the  \n&gt; whole process is important, and I am glad Maxym force=\r\nd me to use  \n&gt; the wiki a few months ago, but honestly, it took me more ti=\r\nme to  \n&gt; get used to wiki that to this whole thing I am trying to put toge=\r\nther.\n&gt;\n&gt; Now, a wiki for the ASAD would be nice: something like very  \n&gt; a=\r\ndvanced things or very hacky things or simple hints/tips or the  \n&gt; FAQ, so=\r\nmething very dynamic. I think that would be a solution to  \n&gt; not forget a =\r\nnumber of the stuff that are discussed on the list,  \n&gt; and a lot is discus=\r\nsed and lost. But most of it should not be in a  \n&gt; relatively static user =\r\nmanual etc. For that, if we have a fast and  \n&gt; functionaly and totally ope=\r\nn thing then let&#39;s go, and if that  \n&gt; evolves into the &quot;future&quot; manual tha=\r\nt&#39;s just as  good :)\n&gt;\n&gt; Oh, and we still need a working system to support =\r\nall the wiki  \n&gt; thing... DocBook support is here and it works, the CVS is =\r\nhere too  \n&gt; and the tracker system and the l10n list. For the wiki we curr=\r\nently  \n&gt; have RFEs only.\n\nSo I think you have a better idea of my thinking=\r\n now.\n\nLet me reply to your points specifically though:\n\nOn 19 d=E9c. 06, a=\r\nt 04:04, Sabine Cretella wrote:\n\n&gt; JC, I already talked to Henry: I am not =\r\nsure if DocBook makes too much\n&gt; sense - consider that on a wiki we can co-=\r\noperate more easily and  \n&gt; there\n&gt; is already a piece of code that allows =\r\nfor the direct conversion of  \n&gt; the\n&gt; wiki pages to normal html pages. I p=\r\nassed Henry the link to it before\n&gt; leaving Italy.\n\nI think wiki has a purp=\r\nose and DocBook has another purpose. As I  \nwrite above, wiki is fine for v=\r\nery dynamic documents. DocBook is fine  \nfor, well, books.\nOmegaT&#39;s user ma=\r\nnual is a book, it is not a set of loose pages.\n\nDocBook is a document form=\r\nat that is widely used for technical  \ndocumentation. Unlike HTML, unlike w=\r\niki, unlike text pages. It is  \nalso a mature format that exists within a v=\r\nery robust tool chain to  \nproduce a variety of very high quality output.\n\n=\r\nDocBook as a markup format is extremely robust. And it is  \n_structural_ Wh=\r\nich means that tags _mean_ something related to the  \nstructure of the docu=\r\nment.\n\nIt is trivial to make a very complex table of contents, it is trivia=\r\nl  \nto make a full-fledged glossary or terms, it is trivial to make a  \nful=\r\nly indexed document with back references.\n\nBasically, DocBook _is_ the form=\r\nat of choice to produce manuals.  \nWhich is the reason why I choose it.\n\nCh=\r\noosing wiki over DocBook would make maintenance of the manual  \n_extremely_=\r\n complex, because a manual is not only a few pages linked  \ntogether, it is=\r\n also what I mention above: ToC, glossaries, index  \npages. In wiki (and in=\r\n HTML) you have to manually create all that and  \n_that_ is an extremely co=\r\nmplex task. In fact, when I rewrote the 1.6  \nmanual that is exactly where =\r\nI ended up being stuck. There was no way  \nI could easily update the ToC or=\r\n create an index, which are, in my  \nopinion, at the core of _any_ good use=\r\nr manual.\n\nWiki is not a structural markup system. It makes things &quot;look&quot; g=\r\nood  \n(or bad), but it says nothing about the meaning of the parts. Which  =\r\n\nmeans that easy maintenance and transformation of a complex document  \nset=\r\n _is not possible_.\n\nSo, I agree we have room for wiki in OmegaT. The wikip=\r\nedia page is a  \nvery good example. As I wrote to Henry, a FAQ or an ASAD w=\r\nould be  \nperfect in wiki, because they are highly unstable documents and n=\r\not  \nmeant for any kind of specific maintenance or transformation.\n\n&gt; The w=\r\nhole documentation is more than one week of work - who of us  \n&gt; can do\n&gt; i=\r\nt completely?\n\nA number of people already did that. I for one, about a doze=\r\nn others  \ndid already and some more are doing that currently. It is not be=\r\ncause  \nsome people have limitations that everybody does.\n\nThere are plenty=\r\n of ways to collaborate to the documentation  \ncurrently and when the track=\r\ner system will be set I am sure that even  \nmore people will be able and av=\r\nailable and happy to collaborate.\n\nThe tracker system will allow everybody =\r\nwho joins to do from one  \nliners to full pages, and the CVS commit system =\r\nwill allow to do  \nquality control on all the contributions so that the man=\r\nual stays at  \nthe best level (we&#39;ll have plenty of room for proofreaders f=\r\nor ex).\n\n&gt; There will not be many. But there can be many who\n&gt; translate on=\r\nly one page. Consider also that by the end of January  \n&gt; we can\n&gt; have the=\r\n WikiRead WikiWrite feature for OmegaT so that translations  \n&gt; can\n&gt; be do=\r\nne and immediately put online for revision etc. The tm can be  \n&gt; saved\n&gt; o=\r\nn OmegaWiki.org (former WiktionaryZ) attributing the correct license.\n\nAs I=\r\n replied to Henry, such a wiki based system does not exist  \ncurrently. It =\r\nis a bunch of REFs that I had to put myself on  \nSourceForge since nobody o=\r\nn the wiki side cared to keep track of the  \nwiki related support proposal.=\r\n..\n\nSo, today, we don&#39;t have a way to translate wiki in OmegaT, we don&#39;t  \n=\r\nhave a way to download wiki pages, translate them and upload them to  \nthei=\r\nr original place with a different name. We don&#39;t have anything  \nbut Henry =\r\nwho is already busy with other RFEs and 1.7 and his own  \nlife and work.\n\nS=\r\no it is not very realistic, to say the least, and it would not be  \nvery re=\r\nsponsible to transfer the whole documentation system to  \nsomething that do=\r\nes not exist and even if it did when we are done  \nwith the holiday season,=\r\n untested and maybe not bug-free.\n\nAs I replied to Henry, if there are poss=\r\nibilities in the future, to  \nmake all that evolve to a wiki system, if all=\r\n the pieces fit  \ntogether, I have nothing against that.\n\nCurrently the wik=\r\ni idea is gaining a lot of momentum and is very  \nwidely used, but it is re=\r\nally only just another markup language to a  \nlot of people... And technica=\r\nlly, the only difference (and the main  \npoint of wikis) is that _you don&#39;t=\r\n have to use FTP to upload HTML_  \nThat&#39;s it. It is mostly a convenient way=\r\n to put online a few  \nsimilarly looking (CSS) HTML pages. It is not the le=\r\nvel of  \nconvenience we need. We need something _much more_ convenient  \nte=\r\nchnically speaking. Wiki is not a documentation maintenance system,  \nwhich=\r\n is exactly what we need.\n\n&gt; Do you have one DocBook page? I would like to =\r\nsee how it looks like  \n&gt; when\n&gt; I put it online in Mediawiki. And Mediawik=\r\ni tracks changes  \n&gt; automatically.\n\nI fear that would not be of much use. =\r\nYou&#39;d have a markup that looks  \nlike HTML available as text. If you want  =\r\nDocBook pages, there are  \navailable everywhere on the web. Take a look at =\r\nthe Linux  \nDocumentation Project for ex. All the source files are in DocBo=\r\nok  \nXML. Besides, the current DocBook filter was create thanks to a LDP  \n=\r\ninitiative: when the Beginners&#39; Guide to Bash started to be  \ntranslated to=\r\n French, I proposed to use OmegaT (by tweaking the HTML  \nfilter), put a RF=\r\nE on SF, and eventually the DocBook filter was  \ncreated. If there is a rea=\r\nl need to translated wiki pages, then a  \nfilter will come !\n\nDocBook _is_ =\r\nsupported fully supported by OmegaT. In terms of  \nworkflow, working on a D=\r\nocBook page or on a wiki page is _exactly the  \nsame for an OmegaT translat=\r\nor. Or rather _would be_, the day we have  \na filter for wiki markup (cf th=\r\ne related RFE, if you have some time  \nto complete it with the wiki markup =\r\nformat reference to help future  \ndevelopers, go ahead. I gave up because d=\r\nocumenting that is a pain in  \nthe butt: I wish there were &quot;wiki parsers&quot; a=\r\nvailable as there are XML  \nparsers...)\n\n&gt; Hmmm .... I suppose you are doub=\r\nling work just to avoid a very simple\n&gt; way of doing things.\n\nNo, the very =\r\nsimple way of doing things is to use systems that exist  \n(DocBook markup) =\r\nand that work (DocBook is supported by OmegaT,  \nDocBook is made to be conv=\r\nerted to HTML, RTF, PDF, Javahelp, anything  \nyou can think of, right away)=\r\n and that are proved to foster  \ncollaboration (the SF tracker system, the =\r\nSF CVS system).\n\n\nNot do work on systems that exist but do not work (wiki f=\r\normat is not  \nsupported by OmegaT, download and upload neither, wiki canno=\r\nt be used  \nto immediately create complex references) and that are not prov=\r\ned to  \nfoster collaboration (the OmegaT page on wikipedia has yet to be  \n=\r\ntranslated to all the languages we support, collaborators to that  \npage ma=\r\ny appear to be numerous but basically Samuel and I do most of  \nthe mainten=\r\nance and some people add a word here or there or remove a  \nglitch sometime=\r\ns).\n\n\nAs a conclusion, my experience with the Japanese mini translation  \nw=\r\nhere 4+1 people contributed to create the current package proved me  \none t=\r\nhing: doing that is exactly the same as when a translation  \nagency asks ha=\r\nlf a dozen translators to work on the same set of  \ndocuments. The individu=\r\nal works are great and can be of the highest  \nquality but the set is a mes=\r\ns and needs extra work to put together.\n\nThere is absolutely no guaranty th=\r\nat using a wiki would make such  \ncoordination effort easier. What I did wi=\r\nth the Japanese translation  \ngroup is _exactly_ what I do on the wikipedia=\r\n page: adapt  \nterminology, correct a few misunderstanding here and there e=\r\ntc.\n\nSo, wiki as a fantastic way to easily put contents online: yes, 100%. =\r\n \nLet&#39;s do that for all the dynamic content we have and let&#39;s create a  \nOm=\r\negaT wiki activity pole if necessary to have all the latest and  \nmost nerd=\r\ny stuff online as soon as it is conceived.\n\nBut wiki as a &quot;better&quot; way to g=\r\net work done ? My experience says the  \nopposite. And I say &quot;prove me wrong=\r\n&quot;: get the current wikipedia page  \ntranslated by &quot;subchapters&quot;, if size is=\r\n the only thing that keeps  \npeople from starting. And let&#39;s see if the one=\r\n paragraph translator  \nis likely to produce a better job than the one chap=\r\nter translator, or  \nthe one manual translator. And let&#39;s see if we have en=\r\nough one  \nparagraph translators to put the full page together !\n\n  So, for=\r\n now, I&#39;ll keep working with my Japanese friends to produce  \nthe best tran=\r\nslation possible (and meanwhile to have the _most_  \npeople get in touch wi=\r\nth OmegaT: now I can say we have at least half  \na dozen people on the Japa=\r\nnese group who _can_ talk about OmegaT as  \nexperienced users). And I&#39;ll tr=\r\ny to make that collaboration even  \neasier by using the efficient tool suit=\r\ne that SourceForge allows us  \nto use.\n\nI don&#39;t see what else I can do to e=\r\nnsure that everybody has access to  \nthe full documentation management proc=\r\ness. But any realistic proposal  \nis more than welcome.\n\nJean-Christophe\n"}}